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14:47 -!- multi_io [n=olaf@port-87-193-172-154.static.qsc.de] has joined ##java
15:56 < multi_io> the ant people rightly saw that Unix make has portability issues, then wrongly decided that XML was
the best way to solve them
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15:57 < multi_io> essentially, they wrongly identified make's scriptability as being the root of the portability issues
15:57 < multi_io> which is of course wrong. The underlying shell's portability issues are the root of the problem
15:58 < waz> nothing in makefiles format make them non crossplatform
15:58 < multi_io> so, the right way would have been to standardize the scripting layer, maybe by using something
Java-based for it (BeanShell or jpython or something similar comes to mind)
15:58 * tazle doesn't understand "make's scriptability"
15:59 < tazle> it just runs shell commands, how is that "scriptable"?
15:59 < multi_io> Ant is essentially a wrong solution for a correctly identified problem :P
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15:59 < bearded_oneder> multi_io -> as well as the limitations of some unnamed platforms' shell environment (cough,
cough)
15:59 < multi_io> yeah, and the shell commands aren't too portable
15:59 < multi_io> as well as the shell itself
15:59 < basicer> If Ant is the solution to your problem, and you like it: use it. If you dont like it, or it is not
the solution to your problem: use or create something else you like.
15:59 < multi_io> "it's easier to port a shell than a shell script" :-P
16:00 < waz> maven does the job for us
16:01 < RenatoSilva> bearded_oneder: isn't Java human readable?
16:01 < multi_io> tazle: "make's scriptability" = make's ability to easily write (shell) code in it (the code that
executes the build tasks)
16:02 < multi_io> maven isn't scriptable enough imho
16:02 < multi_io> it's too declarative, as far as I can see
16:03 < waz> Java is a LOT more readable than xml
16:03 < multi_io> so.. maven is another wrong solution to a correctly identified problem :P
16:03 < bearded_oneder> RenatoSilva -> still think it is ill advised to mingle the build executor (whether that be an
executable, script, or java class) with the build descriptoe.
16:03 < waz> multi_io: I can build a massive code base across 28 project by typing mvn install
16:04 < waz> pontificate all you like, it works
16:04 < bearded_oneder> descriptor*
16:04 < waz> every time
16:04 < basicer> multi_io -> Id like to see an example build file (in ant) that has problems because its not scritable
enough, and the proposed "java" syntax to compile that same ant script.
16:04 < defendguin> basicer: how can i easily tell then
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16:06 < basicer> System.err.prntln(System.getProperty("java.runtime.version")); at the beggining of main should tell
you
16:06 < multi_io> the right way would have been to standardize the scripting layer as said before, and then implement
an equivalent to maven's automatic dependency resolver as a portable library on top of that
scripting layer
16:06 < bearded_oneder> RenatoSilva -> waz had a valid point that the problem with ant was choosing XML as the
descriptor format, rather than the problem being the separation of the descriptor from the
executor.
16:09 < multi_io> basicer: it's just not hackable enough. As soon as you want to do something trivial that's not
directly supported, like automatically generating some text file that'll be needed at runtime, you
have to switch to Java and write a specific "Ant task" for that
16:10 < multi_io> that's the opposite of hackability
back to build-tools
(C) 1998-2017 Olaf Klischat <olaf.klischat@gmail.com>